Tuesday, May 20, 2008

More thoughts on 'nice' guys...

Should you pay for the date?

Many of my readers may disagree with this, but I do not believe in the guy paying for the first date. Even though we live in an age where gender equality is something given, girls just shamelessly argue that they should be paid for just because it is the gentlemanly thing to do.

Society once thought that women were inferior in society. Should we treat women like dirt just because people think that it's the thing to do? No, thank you. I just love my women way too much and would very much rather appeal to my faculties of rational thought when I make decisions. And I would like my women to do the same (unless you're that bloke who only dates airheads).

Women who believe that gender equality is their right while play the 'but I'm a girl' card whenever it helps you get a free meal are being completely inconsistent with the image of women being equal to men, don't you think?

It's not a hard and fast rule, but I just I don't believe in paying for the first date because I don't believe in giving women (and people in general) things that they have not earned yet.

Tell me, which would make a girl feel more that you're dating her just because of her looks?

1. Paying for her meal and movie ticket on the first date like a obedient puppy for no apparent reason other than the fact that everyone else is doing it (and that your mother told you to).


2. Going dutch on meals until you know that the girl is a good and reliable friend that deserves a treat?

I'm not saying that you should be a rude person who refuses to help your date out should she be lacking sufficient money to pay for her meal, but I believe that one should not be so eager to throw himself blindly at someone he doesn't even know well.

Immediately assuming that the girl is some weak person who is so ill prepared that she came out to dinner without any money to pay for her own dinner is just degrading I tell you. I love my women, and I strongly believe in gender equality, but I also equally strongly believe that women have to first respect themselves before they can expect us men to respect them.

Another reason why I do not believe in paying for the first date is that it presents the guy as needy and insecure. If you ask me, the whole paying for a girl's meal thing just reeks of the stench of prostitution somehow. You're actually paying a girl to spend time with you! Doesn't that sound a little whorey somehow?

I would much rather have a girl spend time with me because I'm an interesting person and she genuinely wants to spend time with me rather than PAY a girl to spend an evening with me. I would rather have a girl first prove her worth to me as a friend first, before I feel that she would deserve any extra special attention from me.

So unless you are so boring and disgusting that no girl would want to spend time with you, then I guess you have no choice but to step up and foot the bill.

I however, would gladly do otherwise.

What do you guys think?


On an unrelated note, I didn't get into NUS's law faculty. Yeah, I saw it coming as I wasn't even called in for an interview, but now it's official. I got provisional acceptance into the business school instead. Guess that really ain't so bad, but the irritating thing is that I still have no news from SMU (Singapore Management University) yet, making it impossible for me to come up with a final decision. Still hoping that I make the cut for law in SMU.

Oh well, guess that one can only pray for the best and let fate take it's course. I'm still sure I'll work out right, somehow.

And I better find time to blog about all the (stupid) things that have been coming out of Mahathir's mouth (hope this too small for him to read). (:


Narcissist said...

A guy shouldn't need to depend on him paying for a girl's meal to get another date. Sometimes I think offering to pay for her meal the first date is like shooting yourself in the foot. How can you bring yourself to tell her to pay for her own chicken the next time you go out with her without looking like a miser? It you really want, be nice and pay the full service charge/GST.

Kevin Chan said...

I couldn't have put it better. (: But i know many (not so level headed girls/guys out there) who would beg to differ. Nice to see that you dropped by, Cui! Hope things are great with you in S'pore! Catch up sometime!

shaun said...

I've always thought the guy should *offer* to pay for the first date, with the actual decision up to the girl. You asked her out, after all, you think she's worth spending time with, and you're the one making a request of her time, so it's only polite to offer to pay for her meal. Admittedly, this may or may not be an outmoded approach to things.

In subsequent dates, I've preferred to clarify the payment arrangements before the actual thing, to avoid misunderstanding. Generally, there's no problem going Dutch. Having said that, if you get the impression the only reason she goes out with you is for the free stuff, she wouldn't be worth further dates in any case, so you can just mercy-kill the relationship.

After all, offering to pay for a girl's meal on the first date is not the same as paying for the girl's company - nor does it mean that the girl can't genuinely enjoy your company. Think of it not as a commercial transaction, but as a social nicety of sorts that shows some consideration on your part.

Is that level-headed?

chaiminhuei said...

I agree with shaun on most parts.

I believe that the person who invited the other party should be the one to pay.


I quote from the above link: "It’s a nice gesture and one that should not be taken for granted."

As far as I can see, it has been taken for granted too seriously at times.

Suh Ming said...

hmmm, i actually find myself agreeing with you this time around. hee. especially since we are still students and what not. however, when you earn your own cash, then i think it's better for a guy to pay for the first date. it's just as what shaun said. =)

RetardG said...

Okay, you may have your points, but from a male's point of view. Have you considered the female's point of view?

Well, coming from me, on the first date I'd personally like it if a guy would offer. And I'd say "no need la! this time i pay myself" or even offer to pay for YOU.

Okay, back to the point, if a guy were to pay for me on the first date, I'd have a good, strong impression on him. He would most prob seem to me as one who is financially secure (and Im not talking about gold diggers) and generous (another plus point!)

but preferably, i'd like first dates to be paid separately. But if u like her enuf, u'd want to pay for her even if its the first date or wtv.

Kevin Chan said...

Guys and gals,

My contention here is not so much the act of paying for the girl, but society's practice of the guy having to pay for the first date by default.

Shaun, why should the final decision lie with the girl? A date isn't a free lunch/dinner for the girl, but it's just an outing where two people come out and just have fun together. That's it. If it were only polite to pay for a girl's meal, is it also equally necessary to pay for a friend of the same sex that you just asked out?

If I ask you, Shaun, out to a movie, am I obliged to pay for you? I definitely don't think so. But would I belanja you if you were a good friend? I definitely would.

Treating girls with a 'double standard' is just treating them as unequals. Girls of today are different and they can very well afford to pay for dates just as well (if not better) than we guys can.

And so what Suh Ming, if a guy makes his own cash, unless the girl he's dating isn't earning yet, I would still advocate going Dutch. Sorry dear, i'm not going to degrade you as some weak, second-class human here. You're just as strong and able to feed yourself, an equal. Behave like one. (: And yeah, I personally wouldn't want to date a woman who isn't my equal. Weak women are such turn-offs, but I digress.

Girls, yes it can be a nice gesture, but a date isn't all about a guy's good impression too you know? It's a two way thing, and I believe that a girl that I continue to date must make an equally powerful impression on me.

And what better way to make an impression on me than the girl picking up the tab and paying for dinner (of course I'll pay for something else back then in return lah)!

But yeah, like retarg (what a name lah!) put it, I would rather pay separately until I know she's someone who really deserves all my care and attention. Then, there shall be no compromises.

But before then, I'm gonna keep the girl guessing if I'm really in to her or not just for the fun of it. And yeah girls, you gotta admit it, you do enjoy the chase!

shaun said...

Kev: for me, the final decision lies with the girl because letting her make that decision is a balance between insisting on paying, and insisting on not paying. Offering to pay shows your willingness to pay for the reasons I stated above, and at the same time leaves space for the girl to offer to go Dutch instead, or to pay, or to gracefully accept. Like I said, you asked her out, you might as well be considerate. This doesn't mean I'm obliged to pay no matter what because I'm socially conformist, so much as it means that I will always offer to pay on the first date because I'm trying to be thoughtful.

And no, you are not obliged to pay for my movie ticket for the very simple reason that if we went for a movie, it would *never* be in the context of a date, which is what the discussion is about. The use of the term "date" implies more than just a fun outing between friends - it typically implies an attempt at fostering or maintaining a romantic relationship. And I really do mean *never*. So your analogy doesn't apply.

Look, offering to pay does not equate to looking down on someone. Ironically, in your stated desire not to be sexist, you're looking at the practice in a very sexist manner. You argue that people who are "just as strong and able to feed [themselves], [equals]," should pay for themselves. So by that logic I should never belanja you, or you'll get offended, because I'll be treating you like someone who's weak and who can't feed himself. But I do belanja you on occasion, because hey, I'm being nice. And by that same token, I can offer to pay for a girl's meal, because hey, why can't I be nice to her too on occasion? So why is it you don't seem to approve of my paying for her meal for the same reasons that I might pay for your drink?

I get the feeling you've gone into God Mode again here. I see a whole set of loaded and self-righteous assertions in your reply. Like, oh, let's not have double standards, not look down on women, because paying means we're treating them like "weak, second-class human[s]", who by the way "are such turn-offs". I don't get why paying for them makes them weak and second-class. I don't even know what "double standard" you're referring to. And this is just your reply, and not the language from your actual post.

You're right: your "contention here is not so much the act of paying for the girl, but society's practice of the guy having to pay for the first date by default." It's just that in your arguments against the latter, you've basically lashed out against the former. You tell me, debater: am I being level-headed or not?

chaiminhuei said...

I like the phrase 'defaulted on demand'.

Robb said...

i agree with min huei :D

Kenny Choo said...

Hi, Lol to the main post. Kinda agree to it, but will still depends on the situation. Well paying for the 1st date always will be carry on to the 2nd date. :P like...I will treat you back next time. Lolol

But the serious note here. You got the so call "rejection" from the law faculty already?

Coz I was not called for my achitecture interview too. Hmpf and now just waiting for the rejection so that I can sign another scholarship agreement. NUS=slow

chaiminhuei said...

I just had a class on self presentation today.

The payment for the first date can be used as a marker. The guy should always offer to pay. The girl would have two choices:

1. Offer to pay
This might be the girl's way of hinting, 'I don't want to owe you anything in the future' which practically means 'I don't want to go out with you anymore'. Of course, the girl might genuinely be sincere, but I'm just offering you another side of the picture, the mental games we play.

2. Take the offer
The girl might be hinting 'I look forward towards the next date'. Of course it would be better paired with a non-gold digger type.

It's like a indirect way of assessing how the date went.

Bernard said...

I do not mind paying everything on my first date with the girl. However if she should demand it, I would rather use that money to pay a whore than pay for her.

And on the whole I do not agree with chaiminhuei. If the girl takes the offer, it could also meant that she is treating you as her free meal.

ClareTeo said...

though i'm a girl, i couldn't agree more with the post on how it makes sense that other girls out there are using guys for free meals! unless its some occasion or something, i think that a girl should pay for her own meal unless either party is willing to pay the bill(:

chaiminhuei said...

Thus the 'better paired with a non-gold digger'.

nimalan said...

I'll say pay for hte first date, and the rest go Dutch..But truth to be told, why should it always be the guy who pays for the first date or any dates? Don't girls have money too?

Kevin Chan said...

Min Huei,

I would much rather assess that a date is going well by the fact that the girl in question either:

1. Cannot keep her hands off me


2. Cannot get her lips off mine.

Isn't that a whole lot more useful than the whole paying for her and seeing-how-she-responds-so-I-can determine if she's in to me or not?


Yes I do agree that I may have (by accident?) jumped into godmode quite a bit but I still believe in what I say (duh). If the girl in question would be treated as an equal, doesn't she have to offer to pay to so that she's considerate? I don't think so, as both parties should be equally responsible and equally capable (unless you go out with a girl earning shit wage and shes constantly being tortured by her evil stepsisters, then pay for her) to pay for the meal.

And one of my points here is that you do NOT need to pay for a meal just because it's an attempt at fostering a romantic relationship. See, its perfectly fine to be nice to a guy friend on occasion if he's a nice person right, but you're not obliged to be nice to a person when you're just getting to know someone, right?

Well, I guess you can be nice, but then again, they're a lot of problems with being too nice, ya? Will elaborate more about that in the next episode of WWW alright?

p.s. and you don't need to be nice to get a girl attracted to you. saves you money. (:

Kenny Choo,

Yeah, i got an invitation to the NUS BBA tea too. SMUUUUUUU! When will you announce the resultsss! All the best in yr apps too, kenny!


Hahahah! Well, provided that the whore is better looking la!


Yup, its a sad sad world that we live in, but I still believe in being nice to girls, just that rather do it after I get to know them better and see that they're worthy of my attention and money.

Thanks guys for the comments! More people commenting on this than the Mahathir one, aiks!

Guess politics isn't for everyone, but sex and relationships are. :D

shaun said...

I don't know. Why bother getting to know someone if you won't even be polite? Nice is the wrong word: there are too many associations attached here because of your previous post. I have seen nice guys and I'm pretty sure offering to pay for a meal hardly scratches "nice" in the way you seem to mean it. But what the hell.

Random: maybe on the third date, but hands and lips typically don't come into play (omg pun) on the first date. Has that ever happened, seriously? And do I even want to know? =P

chaiminhuei said...

1. Cannot keep her hands off me.

2. Cannot get her lips off mine.

The only thing you can assess from those two is sexual openness. Or sexual deprivation. Or excessive sexual desires.

ern sheong said...

well just my two cents... if the date has been arranged between two people who know each other really well, as in good friends looking to move on to the next level, i think going Dutch is fine.

thing is, many tend to skip friendship or explore it first, thus we get the guy-invite-girl first time scenario. if the guy really wishes to make an impression, paying for the girl wud do him a favour. i think most girls wouldn't go through such an intellectual discussion on whether it is better for guys to pay or not. i figure that it would be rather awkward when the bill comes and you tell her "hey, let's divide this by two!" or when you look expectantly at her to fork the her own movie ticket cost... she will totally remember you for that, i can bet on that.

back to the first scenario in first paragraph. sincerely, i would like to add that paying for the girl is only polite and proper. she made time for you, gave her attention to you, had a great conversation with you, shared a small part of her life with you during that date, etc. and thus i think that it would not be too much to ask for the guy to foot the bill on her behalf. small things make the biggest difference.

Kevin Chan said...

"she made time for you, gave her attention to you, had a great conversation with you, shared a small part of her life with you during that date, etc. and thus i think that it would not be too much to ask for the guy to foot the bill on her behalf. small things make the biggest difference."

Didn't the guy just do the same too? Why should he have to be the one that pays? (:

ern sheong said...

well being the gentleman that we are... we pay la aiyo!!! kevin ar...

some things shouldn't change and i think the guys have to initiate it and take the lead, which also means footing the bill, well, at least for the first time. that's just me. when the dates get more frequent each can take turns to pay too. so i have no issue with that myself

The Beautiful Kind said...

I believe in pro-rating dating. If the person I'm dating makes more than me, they should pay the majority of the time. If I'm making more, then I must be dating a homeless person and can console myself with the fact that I am a better dresser than he or she is. ????? wow this comment really got whacked out.